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Mahmoud A-Zahhar (Hamas)
Below is the transcript of an interview with Mahmoud A-Zahhar, the leader of Hamas in the Gaza Strip.
The interview was conducted ahead of the January 25th Palestinian parliamentary elections. Hamas, for the first time, participated in these elections, and won 76 out of 132 parliamentary seats.
During the interview, A-Zahhar revealed his movement’s political and economic agendas, reiterating the notion that his movement will never recognize Israel. He also said he expects to see Hamas ministers in the next Palestinian government. In addition, A-Zahhar uncovered in detail Hamas’ plan to reconstruct and redefine the Palestine Liberation Organization’s (PLO) responsibilities, according to which it would represent the entire Palestinian nation, inside and outside the Palestinian Authority (P.A.).
The Media Line (TML): When the election campaign starts, in what way will Hamas persuade voters to vote for it?
Mahmoud A-Zahhar (A-Z): Through a reform program. The education needs reform, agriculture needs reform, industry needs reform, the cultural program requires reform, lands that have been liberated need to be subjected to a national project for schools, factories, agricultural lands, hospitals, and places where foreigners, Palestinians and Arabs can invest. Strong ties need to be established with the Arab and Muslim countries. These are a few elements of the full reform program.
TML: Does Hamas have a plan as to how to solve all these issues?
A-Z: Every issue has its program. If I talk about industry, for example, we do not need large industries. Large industries which are connected with large companies and mass import and export, can be achieved at any time. This is why our program is for small industries, and for industries in distanced communities. These industries should first answer the needs of the Palestinian street, meaning the most urgent needs so that we will not have to import. Also, we aim to develop other industries, for example: the agriculture program. Each area will have its own agriculture, that way the agriculture industry will be developed; education; guarding; transferring; storing – and other things. So our view is very different from that of the (Palestinian) Authority.
TML: What do you intend to do about the unemployment issue?
A-Z: We are going to create many small industries and many small agricultural farms. Agriculture will become industrialized. Also, we will have an employment – rather than unemployment – program that will invest in production. Today the P.A. is distributing money to the people. We don’t want to give money to the people, we want to allocate jobs. Unemployment will end when various projects in [the fields of] agriculture, industry, investment, tourism will be implemented, and when private investments will be encouraged. An example for a private investment, is the renting out of greenhouses which have been recently obtained from the [Israeli] settlements [in the Gaza Strip]. If we rent them out to the private sector, it will provide jobs for many workers and that way we’ll eradicate the unemployment problem.
TML: Hamas doesn’t recognize Israel and rejects the Oslo agreements. How will the movement convince the Palestinian people that it continues to stick to its ideology despite being part of the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC) which was established after Oslo?
A-Z: That is a very important question and I will answer it. First of all, Oslo came to an end. Oslo came to an end for several reasons. It was an interim period which was imposed from 1994, or from 1995, until it ended in 1999. The second point is that there is a new program – although we don’t agree with it – which poses an alternative to Oslo, and that is the Road Map. Thirdly, the Likud party rejected Oslo when it was in the opposition and also when it rose to power. It terminated Oslo when it entered the Palestinian lands and occupied them entirely after 2000. Therefore, Oslo doesn’t exist. What exists now in the PLC and in the basic law has nothing to do with Oslo. Therefore, we are not entering the elections under the Oslo agreement. Changes were made in the election law and in all the elements of Oslo. The only thing left from Oslo is the Paris economic agreements. We regard them as shameful. We have another program, against the Paris plan, a plan which has nothing to do with the Paris agreement which imposed on us expenditure of a lot of money, efforts and taxes. We don’t need this. We need to exchange a weak economy for a strong one, and make this economy last. We can work on the basis of the economies in the Arab and Muslim worlds, in Egypt and other countries.
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Mahmoud A-Zahhar (l) with Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri (Hamas)
TML: If Israel withdraws from all the areas occupied after 1967, will this be the end of the resistance?
A-Z: First of all we already agreed with the Palestinian factions on this plan. On the basis of this plan we can establish a state, after which we would engage in a long hudna (calm agreement), which would last for years.
TML: What is the final goal of Hamas?
A-Z: If you ask any Palestinian or Muslim, wherever he lives – in America or in Britain or in Indonesia – he would tell you that according to the religious point of view, this land is part of the Arab and Muslim nations. This means, that there is no other option but to reunify this land once again.
TML: What is ‘this land’ that you are talking about? Are you talking about the whole of Israel?
A-Z: I understand where you are headed, and I will answer you. First of all this Palestinian land, and all the Arabic nation, is all part of the same area. In the past, there was no independent Palestinian state; there was no independent Jordanian state; and so on. There were regions called Iraq or Egypt, but they were all part of one country. That is why it is not permitted to [agree to] establish separate countries, which was the case after the Sykes-Picot Agreement [1916]. Our main goal is to establish a great Islamic state, be it pan-Arabic or pan-Islamic. Therefore, it is not allowed to establish an Arabic state over the land of Palestine alone. Also, remember this land is still occupied. To sum up, the Islamic and traditional views reject the notion of establishing an independent Palestinian state. The European example is clear. Europe’s history is filled with wars and blood. Its races are varied, its languages are varied, and nevertheless it established the European Union. The Islamists’ view, which Hamas adheres to, is that a great Muslim state must be established, with Palestine being a part of it. Within this state, Israel has no place – its history is different, its language is different, its religion is different, its culture is different, and its security and political affiliations are different. This is the view of Hamas movement.
TML: Is Hamas ever going to recognize the state of Israel?
A-Z: Let me ask you a question, does the Egyptian people recognize Israel? No. That is why it did not normalize relations with Israel. This is not a view held only by Hamas. This is a view held by anyone who believes in Islam.
TML: Hamas is entering the Palestinian Authority, this is a fact. My question is then: If the P.A. has recognized the state of Israel, won’t Hamas – being part of the P.A. – be obliged to also recognize Israel?
A-Z: I’ll ask you a question. When the Labor Party signed the Oslo agreement, the Likud party was in the opposition. Did it [later on] accept the Oslo agreement? [TML: According to the democratic way, when a government is signing an agreement, the government which succeeds it is obliged to follow its agreements.] [A-Z continues:] So the Likud was obliged to follow it, but it did not accept it, nor did it recognize it. And when it rose to power it completely terminated the Oslo agreement. The same is with us. This issue is forced upon us, the same way the occupation, Oslo, and the Palestinian Authority is forced upon us. But despite all this, we will not recognize [Israel].
TML: In an interview you gave to the London-based daily A-Sharq Al-Awsat, you said there is no reason why Hamas should not participate in the next elections for the P.A. chairman. Who do you think is the strongest candidate Hamas has to offer?
A-Z: Hamas has Majalis Shura (advisory councils) all over the West Bank and Gaza, and they will decide.
TML: Suppose in the future Hamas’ candidate is elected as chairman of the P.A.; will he be able to operate without international recognition, specifically without American recognition?
A-Z: Many countries are not recognized by the United States. Cuba for example has existed more than 50 years without the recognition of the Americans; and even with American hostility. Syria is experiencing American hostility, and so do Iraq and Iran.
TML: But the American government is aiding financially and politically…
A-Z: That is the problem. When the American government gives support to a nation, it denies it its decision-making – and national – rights. That is why when we come, we will not extend our hand and beg like America wishes. If America wants to give its support without conditions, we welcome it; and if it does not, we have our own means to rely on.
TML: Are we going to see ministers from Hamas in the next government?
A-Z: All in accordance with the election’s results.
TML: But does Hamas oppose the idea of entering the government?
A-Z: The Palestinian people elects Hamas so it can serve it. So how can Hamas serve the people without joining [the government]?
TML: Hamas speaks a lot about the establishment of a high authority, which will represent all Palestinian people. What powers does Hamas want this authority to have?
A-Z: The same powers the [Palestine] Liberation Organization had before its convention was changed. The PLO’s convention took care of issues concerning the Palestinian people inside [the Palestinian territories] and outside. Today no one is taking care of the issues concerning the Palestinian people outside. That is why we must establish a high authority which would take care of issues inside and outside [the Palestinian territories]. I believe the only way possible and effective today, is to reorganize the PLO according to different political and administrative principles. This means Hamas should be represented in the PLO according to its actual size.
TML: Why is there a need for a high authority? Do you not consider the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC) as the high authority?
A-Z: No. The PLC is elected by the people living inside – in the West Bank and Gaza. More than half of the Palestinian people are living abroad. We will not abandon them as prey for the naturalization plans. They are considered Palestinians even if they carry other nationalities, and therefore it is within their rights that we find someone to take care of them.
TML: How would you then arrange for elections for this high authority, if the Palestinians are spread around the world?
A-Z: We can have elections in Lebanon, in Syria, in Egypt. In Jordan there is a problem. There is an agreement with the government according to which we cannot organize elections there. From those countries where we would have the possibility to conduct elections, we will have representatives in the National Council. In those countries where we will not be able to conduct elections, each faction would be given [a number of representatives] according to the average total it got in all the other countries. This is how we will establish the temporary National Council.
The Legislative Council [which is today the Palestinian parliament] will represent the [citizens living] inside [the Palestinian territories], and will be part of the National Council. The rest of the representatives will come from the outside. The total representatives – from both the inside and outside – will form the National Council. This council will represent the entire Palestinian people, and will become the high authority. This high authority will actually be the new [reorganized] PLO.
TML: Lately many Hamas leaders, including you, came out of hiding. Why?
A-Z: First of all, our being in hiding did not shame us. But there was a need to protect the unity of the movement and the persistence of its leadership. We are up against criminal enemies such as Sharon and his followers, who have trials against them waiting all over the world, beginning God willing in Britain. These enemies are equipped with American weapons such as the F-16 aircrafts which destroyed my home and killed my son and others; Apache helicopters; and Unmanned Aerial Vehicles for reconnaissance. So there was no other way, we had to use cautionary measures. But now, the land [Gaza] is free, and we have means to react. If any of us is attacked, we will react with an attack deep inside [Israel], in a way Israel never imagined. I believe it would be wise if Israel did not use these methods.
TML: Dr. Mahmoud A-Zahhar, thank you for this interview.
A-Z: Thank you.